Drew Coffman: Leonardo Da Vinci, Roam Community, Nostalgia (V1)

In this episode, we talk with Drew Coffman, who is an optimist interested in the connections between creativity, technology and true meaning.

As someone who has been on Twitter for a very long time, Drew is in multiple circles from Tech Twitter, to Roam Twitter, and many other things that captures his attention. His YouTube channel (aptly named Drew Coffman), has videos about Roam Research from a beginner's point of view, trying to understand the different features that the tool has.

We talked about:

• Roam's community and how that is a hidden feature of Roam
• The impact of Roam research on our ability to interact with each other, through our notes
• The power of nostalgia and how it impacts us.
• Leonardo da Vinci, The Renaissance Man
• Answering the question: What would your [[Mona Lisa]] be? 

Enjoy!

Links

• Drew's Twitter
• Drew's YouTube Channel

Transcript

Norman Chella: 0:18

In this episode, we talk with Drew Coffman, who is an optimist interested in the connections between creativity, technology and true meaning. His YouTube channel aptly named Drew Coffman contains videos about Roam research. From a beginner's point of view, trying to understand a different features that the tool has. And as someone who has been on Twitter for a very long time drew as in multiple circles from tech, Twitter, to Roam Twitter, and many other things that captures his attention. So in this episode, we talk about roamcult, The community aspect of Rome and how that is a hidden feature of Roam research, the impact of Roam research on things like social media, our ability to interact with each other, through our notes, taking us back to the nineties, just like hypertext was. The power of nostalgia and how it impacts us. And Leonardo da Vinci, one of the greatest men of all time, in my humble opinion, a true Renaissance man, drew shares his thoughts on why Leonardo were so renowned throughout the world for it is variety of interests and answering the question, what would your Mona Lisa be? From possibilities of a Rome graph to all kinds of things, we just went full nerd on everything roam related. So without further ado, let's dive into my chat with Drew Coffman. I don't know how rowdy we're going to get, uh, talking about Roam, um, because things tend to get pretty heated up whenever we talk about something pretty, pretty damn exciting. Um, yeah. Uh, I'm not sure. Uh, have you been, have you been chatting with a lot of, um, few Roamcult members recently just in general, uh, having conversations about this because I'm sensing a very interesting pattern here just from seeing that.

Drew Coffman: 2:10

Uh, what, what, what pattern are you talking about?

Norman Chella: 2:13

The energy level exponentially goes higher. The more that you run out of topics to talk about when it comes to what you know, and then all you're left with are the commonalities, which are the tool Rome and how you use it. And the future, like. It is a very interesting filter. Like people are very, very future oriented. So I was just curious to see, like, when you were talking about remove other people, uh, what, what have you seen.

Drew Coffman: 2:40

I really think that one of the defining features of roam research is the community that it's built on Twitter. Um, I'm like a long time Twitter user. I don't know about you. Uh, but I've been on there for. Far too long. It's one of those things where, you know, it sends you that like, congratulations, it's your Twitter anniversary message every year. And like, my number is high enough that it starts to feel like weirdly depressing. Like, wait, why have I been on here for so long? And like, what am I, what have I been doing with all that time? Because I'm a very future oriented person. And I'm also a very community oriented. The person, I always want to meet new people and do new things. And for a long time, my Twitter has been like tech, Twitter. You know, you kind of bubble yourself into these different little communities and as someone who likes technology, you know, it's the Apple, Twitter, it's the new tech Twitter, but that community, I don't know if you have been a part of it isn't necessarily the most like. Well, welcoming or gracious sometimes, especially about their own stuff. You know, like, Oh, a new Apple announcement one's coming out very soon. Probably. Well, one will have come out by the time this is released. I'm sure. Um, unless you're really fast. And, uh, and, um, you know, there's a lot of like cynicism and skepticism about future oriented stuff. Um, in the, the Twitter bubble that I had built. And when I started finding Rome, You know, it, it's a, it's a tool that requires you to reach out and find other people because of its beta nature. And every single person that I came across was so kindhearted. So interested in talking about these things with me, there are so many accounts that I've found that are, you know, probably searching. You know, at Rome research, Rome, research, Rome, cult, all these things every day, just to find new people to talk to. Um, and that's one of the things that made me so happy to have found this tool is like, Oh, I didn't just find a tool. That's good for me. I found like my people, I found the community. That's good for me too. So yeah, I definitely agree. I mean, you know, there's a. After having been in the Hardy skepticism of tech Twitter for so long, it feels really good to be in a space where everybody's passionate about the future. Not like Rose colored glasses, you know, optimistic either. Like everybody understands that this is a beta, that things change, whatever. Um, but yeah, it's, it's really cool to be a part of a community. That's just excited about seeing technology progress in a way that like makes us all better.

Norman Chella: 5:08

yeah. And too, I'm not sure when exactly was it that when you discovered Rome, but I noticed this when I joined Twitter only last year. Uh, mainly because my foray into Twitter was the podcasting space. So not tech, Twitter, uh, and. Uh, podcasting and tech they're they're a little bit, they're, they're a little bit similar in terms of the speed of development, like more and more companies coming in or new non-sports, et cetera. So there are some overlap. And then from there, I start to know these names like notable tech figures or people in the VC space, or, you know, the entrepreneurs who are doing long tweet, tweet threads about how they're doing, how they're feeling, et cetera, et cetera. Uh, and then Rome came about. So it's, it's interesting because not only do you have. Active discussions on whatever space that you're interested in on Twitter that Twitter allows for that to happen. But it also really caters for Rome's biggest attractive point, which is the filtering and the attraction of a specific kind of person or a specific kind of personality. So, you know, it's, it's just fun to be part of this journey.

Drew Coffman: 6:21

Do you remember where, and you've, you've talked about this before, but do you, do you remember specifically where you first saw Rome? Like, was it on Twitter and how, like, who was it?

Norman Chella: 6:31

uh, I, I remember very specifically, uh, it was, uh, it was me on Twitter and I saw a post by Nat, uh, not a license and he did a blog post about it. You know, it's that, it's that very popular blog post about, Oh, about room research and why I use it, et cetera, et cetera. And it was shared by, uh, someone who works at Buzzsprout, who is here. He's a head of marketing at Alvin, Brooke. Um, and I know Alvin from, because we're both involved in podcasting, so we see each other's names often. So it was, it was my first time seeing someone who's involved in podcasting, just someone who is just behind the microphone, talking all of a sudden, be interested in. Personal knowledge management. Like I never would have thought that that would collide. Like those two groups of people would ever collide. I never would've thought that he would be interested in PKM, but there he was commenting on it. So him commenting on that, attracted me to it. And I didn't really think much of it at the time until he was telling me about all the. The ability to remix blocks, et cetera. And then I thought, okay, there's some potential there. And then I tried the, the tool and then look where we are now. So, yeah. Do you, do you remember when, uh, how you discovered it?

Drew Coffman: 7:50

No, and that's what I, I, I should really go back and try to find it, but that's, you know, I didn't follow Nat. I didn't know who Connor was. I didn't know any of these people in this world. Like my Twitter feed today and my Twitter feed back when I first found it, which was around March, maybe February. Is completely different. So, you know, I'm like, man, I'm scratching my head, like who in my weird tech Twitter bubble that mostly talked about, you know, the new iPhone, uh, was interested in Rome research and was talking about it. Um, so I, I should, I should go back and find it, but, you know, I was one of those people that. When I first found out about Rome, I downloaded it. Well, I didn't download it. I opened the website, I signed up for it. I gave it a little try and then I just totally bounced off of it for the first week, two weeks, three weeks, something like that. Um, I have never really been a person that is like super systems oriented. Um, Which is actually why I like Rome is because it allows me to be sort of chaotic. Um, but I had come from like, you know, notion Evernote, uh, to do this, like these tools where like, Oh, I know how this thing works. It requires me to put all this stuff in there to make it really functional. And I'm probably not going to do that. So I think I'm going to leave until maybe there's some more features that compel me to come back. And it was really, it was, it was like, unfortunately, you know, 20, 20 craziness, like the quarantine that really made me reconsider it. Um, right before things really started getting locked down here in LA. Uh, I thought, you know, This would be this, this feels like a good time to like organize my thoughts more because I may have in the future a bit more free time than I have usually a bit more time inside, a bit more time with books. So let me, let me try this tool again. Um, and it just like blew my mind when I realized that there wasn't like one way that it was trying to make me use it. There was. In infinite amount of ways. And I just had to figure out the one that worked for me. Um, and that's like something I've really noticed over and over again in the way that I talk about Rome and the people that like seeing helped by the stuff that I'm sharing is. I am by no means the biggest power user of the tool. I'm probably on like the low end of using everything, you know, every once in a while I'll see a tweet. I'm like, Oh yeah. There's like mermaid. I don't even know what mermaid stands for, but Oh yeah. That, that might be cool to like, try that out sometime. Like I have no use for that kind of stuff on a day-to-day basis. And I like, forget it exists, but. The way that I use things is exactly the way that my brain works. And every once in a while I'll get a tweet or a YouTube comment or something. When I talk about Rome saying like, Oh, that's really great. Like I've been using Rome for a long time, but I've been trying to do it this way that somebody else taught me or this way that this other app taught me. And I just need to, I like the way that you just said it makes me realize I can do it the way that my brain works instead of the way that. The system, you know, is intended quote unquote, because in Rome there, isn't a way that the systems necessarily intended and like that's what rules so much. So yeah, it's been, it's been interesting to see how, you know, over the course of time, I sort of had to like figure out my own way into Rome. And I think that's probably the same for, for quite a few people.

Norman Chella: 11:11

Yeah, uh, for, for, uh, yeah, definitely for a number of people. And it is intimidating in, in the very beginning because you're met with the strangest thing ever when you open it up for the first time, which is a date and a blank page, like. What the hell? Uh, I mean, we've had, uh, a previous guest, uh, Stan from episode one described it as like, you know, I'm not, I'm not like a teenager, uh, writing into my diary for, uh, for school. I'm not trying to write my emotions into this. Why the hell is there a daily notes page? And then all of a sudden, it, it, it came to realize just how powerful it was. Uh, so that was, that was really interesting that the fact that we have to try to articulate. The need to release previous systems that, that we've been conditioned into doing for our notes ticking system, because we're trying to take that from other apps and then putting that into row, like we will be attracted with the, with, with how powerful Rome can be. We, you know, all this buzzwords words and, Oh, it's, it's, there's no structure or something like that. And they were met with this and all of a sudden they tell you anything is accepted. And you fall into to two categories of people, the ones who were extremely exploratory, that they will try everything. And then they'll realize that that is accepted. And then the others who require a little bit more guidance in that I am now left with a note taking system where everything is accepted. What do I do? And the confusion comes from a, from a mix of there's like an expectation at the end. Like I'm supposed to write everything in there maybe, or hopefully something will come up. But romantic, let it grow over time. Uh, so there's like a shift in a mindset, uh, when trying to redefine the word note-taking system and then Rome is helping us with that. Um, so it's nice to see that when, you know, you were doing a YouTube videos and I'm seeing if you had a YouTube as, as well, uh, bring up ways to explain Rome. Uh, I was watching your YouTube videos just today. Actually, I just, you know, of course the prep to prep for this, but, but also just out of fun, like purely out of like, Oh yeah, I want to search Rome. What happens? Right. It's really nice. Like you're one of the most welcoming people when it comes to explaining Rome. Um, whenever we talk about introducing Rome to others, I'm not sure what's your take on this, but do you find that a lot of people always try to introduce the tool Rome as a productivity booster from a productivity boost perspective, as opposed to just a place to write.

Drew Coffman: 13:51

Yeah, I think I, yeah, like it's obviously I don't have my thoughts fully formed as I, I stumbled a little bit, but one of the things that I, I felt when I first saw Rome is. Like I've downloaded a billion note, taking apps on my phone, you know, there's every single one that's ever come out. I probably have in my download history on my iPhone. Um, and I've tried a bunch of different, you know, plain text files marked down, whatever, on my, on my computer as well. And like, if you asked me if you put a gun to my head right now and asked me, like, tell me exactly what the rum research homepage says right now. Like, I couldn't tell you, like, I don't, I don't remember exactly what it says, but whatever it was. You know, the only thing that like stuck in my mind was the little, like, uh, arrow, diagonal, arrows, like linking thoughts to each other. Um, and, and I realized like that is such a important. Distinction from every other note taking app that that's all that I'm going to tell people when I try to explain it to them. Because if you say there's this new note taking app, then everyone says, gee, I've ha I have plenty of those. And you know, a lot of friends and very like. Power user oriented. People are just using Apple notes now because it's such a good tool that, you know, it works for them. Uh, and if you say it's a productivity thing, people already have a productivity system it's 2020. Like, you know, they figured out the thing that works for them. There's been many, many years where they've decided if they to do as person or a things person or an Omni focused person or in a sauna person or whatever it might be. But when you say to people. This is a tool that is really helpful to you because it lets you connect your thoughts and like, Bubble up your thoughts that you may have forgotten about in a way that you wouldn't usually do that really clicks, because I don't think that anyone in the world is, is looking around and saying, you know what? I love about computers and you know what? I never go go. You know, what I hope never goes away is the file system like files and folders. I love them so much. I love them in real life. I mean, I'm sure there's somebody, but you know, that's not the typical, that's not the typical feeling. And in fact, my, my wife, who is like, You know, uh, the, the, the very polar opposite of me when it comes to technology, she like has no interest in new tech. You know, she's very happy with her systems. She's very happy with her setup. She does not care about the new iPhone or the new. AirPods or a new app. It just doesn't register as interesting or intriguing to her this weekend. She downloaded drum or she started using her own research because she's working on this long form creative project. And she's been just writing all of these things that are just kind of disappearing into Apple notes. And I said to her, like, I, I know that I know how you feel about technology. I'm not trying to pitch you something. Give me 30 seconds to just show you how this tool works and how I use it. And if it's interesting to you. I'll I'll help you, like, you know, import stuff into it. And I just showed her the graph and I clicked on one of the notes and showed her how it expanded to other notes. And it just instantly like, was recognizable to her as helpful because she's been writing these different, you know, bits and pieces over the last six months or so. And then they just sort of disappear into an archive of files and folders on your phone or your Mac book or wherever. And you sort of forget that you wrote it and you know, when you see stuff. Like connecting together. I think that it works as such a huge motivator in a way that we don't fully understand like the, you know, the thing that I was also doing in tandem with building my initial Rome research graph was growing a sourdough starter and they felt very similar to me. Like I was every day feeding this little starter so that I could make bread and caring for it, you know, like giving it a daily dose of life. And then I was also. Feeding my note collection and letting my thoughts in our connect in a way that, you know, let it grow and grow. And as I watched my room research graph get bigger and bigger. It wasn't like that was actually unlocking something in my brain. It wasn't like, Oh yeah. Now I have 200 notes now I've loved. Like, it didn't matter, you know, like it's, it's the little connections that matter. It didn't matter how big my sourdough starter was, because all I needed was enough to make a loaf of bread. Right. But like just watching it expand, made me feel like something good was happening. And it's, it's like a positive feedback loop where as I watched it grow and grow, I wanted to put more and more in. And that's what I watched my wife do this weekend is. You know, she put a couple of notes in, and then she saw the connections and she's like, Oh, what about this? And started putting those in and saw the connections. And all of a sudden she probably had 40 or 50 different notes that she had imported into Rome that we're all interconnected and really beautiful ways. And I know that now she has a better. Like starting the starting place for the next time that she sits down and writes. Whereas before every time that she sat down and she had to start with a blank page, now that blank page is eliminated and she has all of these different places to start from. And like, that's the power. So none of that can be said as. Note-taking tool or productivity tool. Like it's, it's something bigger. It's, it's such a tool for thought, um, that I try to convey that whenever I talk about it, because I know that that's the thing that people say, yeah, I don't have any of that. I don't have that downloaded on my phone anywhere, you know, nothing is helping me think in that way. And that sounds worthwhile to give a try, even though I've downloaded 500 note taking apps.

Norman Chella: 19:30

Yeah, I, maybe I may not have done a it as much as. You have in terms of number of apps, trying to set up some kind of new system or testing out new apps here and there. Um, just to find an app that really resonates with how I think, uh, uh, until it came to Rome and, and, and on the, on the note of trying to define it as a note taking tool or a productivity tool, And I always still feel like this is true that labeling it as such, it can be dangerous because your subject or the tool itself is subject to the rivalries of potential competitors, which are not even competitors. Like they're not even in the same field. Like there are other tools like Evernote or notion or whatever that have different ways to take notes or even collaborate, or even do ABC or XYZ. They have a different set of features that. Put together become that one tool. The thing is with Rome, I feel like because the features are so expensive that it becomes easily compared, like we try to simplify our understanding of it by boiling it down to, Oh, it takes notes. It's a note taking tool or, Oh, it helps you become more productive. It's a productivity tool. It's more like, yes and no. It's like, yes. And much more. So like over time, there's becoming more, there are more discussions on Twitter talking about how Rome is giving birth to a new genre or a field of tools to harness that. Uh, that output, that ability to think better to connect better, or, well, basically what was written on the website for room research, a network thought tool, and that's honestly quite a mouthful to say. Uh, so it's, it's also not that it still sounds a little bit too technical in, uh, in my

Drew Coffman: 21:21

Definitely. Yeah.

Norman Chella: 21:22

So I, I wish that we could find a way to better articulate the value that is provided because like, like you said, your wife is an S. You know, as interested in the technical abilities of network, thoughts, uh, tools as you are, but you showed her a demo and all of a sudden she could probably write a full book. Um, I can only imagine, so yeah, it's marketing. Rome is a whole other story.

Drew Coffman: 21:48

Yeah, competitors is an interesting thing too, because you know, If you talk about it online, just like any tool, you know, everybody sort of gets into these little camps and into the thing that works for them. And people ask, well, have you tried this? Have you tried that? And for me, you know, I'm, I'm super happy if people find like another system that's similar in nature that works for them. But the thing that like drew me to roam research, isn't just like the tool as it exists today. It's the fact that it has a compelling vision for the future that I think they can actually accomplish. And, you know, whenever note was first, like starting to get really big on the scene, you know, years and years ago, um, the CEO said somewhere. I forgot the exact quote, but it was something like, this is going to be a hundred year app. Like that's my goal. My goal is for this to be around for the next hundred years. And even if we don't have computers as we have them today, like I want Evernote to exist. And I thought that is really cool. Like when I'm thinking about storing everything that I care about in a space, uh, I would really like it for that, that tool to be around for a long time. And then that CEO left Evernote. And then I realized that is not going to be a hundred year tool and I deleted it and I didn't ever use it again. Um, because you know, like I was looking for that vision, the reason that I was using the app, um, that platform was because of this, this long-term vision and. That, that inkling, which, which definitely felt a little more like marketing speak. The former CEO of Evernote seems like a rad dude that had that idea. And, you know, unfortunately it didn't work out for that, that use case. Like I very much see in Rome and I, I, I trust Rome to enact that, um, more than Evernote was able to. I also think that we're at a, at a point where. The world feels a little more flat as far as technology, you know, like we've been using Facebook for a long time. We've been using Twitter for a long time. Like at the beginning of the app store, everything felt like, well, in two years, this could all be gone. And now that doesn't feel quite right. It's true anymore. Like we we've come to expect that these tools that we're using today will be around for the longterm. And, um, you know, like a year or two ago, I scanned my great grandmother's journal into, um, like a computer, you know, it was at this physical notebook that my grandmother gave to me, uh, from her mother and I scanned it in and thought, I'm so glad that now, like I have this preserved. And that maybe future generations will have this preserved. And there's a, there's a small part of me. I try not to like, think about it too much because then it kind of makes everything weird. But there's a small part of me that thinks like this collection of notes that I'm making, like, could be around for generations. And I, and I hope that it is like somebody I saw said on Twitter, you know, like, These are tools that we can use to like talk with future generations. And that's a really special thing because you know, when my great grandmother wrote that journal, I don't know if she had that thought that. I would be holding it one day. Like the world felt so fleeting through all of history that no one necessarily thought definitely my thoughts are going to be preserved, but I, I have the privilege because of the technology that we have of, of believing that that's actually possible for me. And that I can create this database, this graph of information, that if someone is interested in it, Long after I'm gone, they can still access it and sort of have this conversation with me. So, you know, like it's cool to be building something that feels long lasting, um, but also intimate at the same time, you know, like I'm not trying to publish some book and make it a New York times bestseller. I'm trying to publish my thoughts for the people that deeply care about me or want to learn about me. Um, even when I w when I can't respond back, you know? And so that's like, That's why I'm not going to try a roam competitor, right. Is because I don't think that any of those people are thinking of that extremely long game. When I know that Connor is, you know, like I know that the Rome research team is dedicated to building something that will continue to evolve and expand, not just over the next 10 years, not just over the next 20 years, but over potential lifetimes. Like I know that. The goal and that's the power of text that still hasn't really been fully understood or sussed out because of the fragility of paper. And now that we're over that hump, you know, something new can happen and it feels like Rome is the right tool to really capture that.

Norman Chella: 26:19

Yeah. And then on that note, uh, having this kind of conversation that goes far beyond longterm, where the factor of us being alive or not does not play a part any more is what makes even just thinking about that vision. Very exciting. And I think I know which tweet you were talking about. Cause it was by, uh, one of the members of their own research team, Matthew McKinley, who talked about having a a hundred year conversation with their family. Uh, just, just the weight of that sentence blew my mind and a shout out to Matthew for that, uh, great guy. Um, and, and my perspective on that is the ability to digitize one's legacy is such a powerful opportunity that we've never really seen that in any other tool up until now. And there are ways to try to salvage that and. Like you said the Frigidaire Theo paper means that sooner or later, these notebooks, these journals may rot or may disintegrate and you may not be able to salvage them anymore. Um, but now that you have Rome, it's possible to, you know, save them and recover them. Uh, I would think that doing something like saving someone's journals or notebooks, it feels like you're saving someone's life. And normally it's maybe it's to do with the way that I view. People's relevance is to one's life as the memories that we make, therefore, we feel that they are alive. So how should we celebrate them even after their death? Or how should we think of them from all the lessons that we've learned as such all of these, like, you know, relationships and they're, they're sort of like organic linked references. If you think about it that way, but if you put them all together and then you save that and you recovered it and you can share that with the rest of humanity, um, And Rome is paving the way for that eventually to happen. I think that is such a beautiful thought to have.

Drew Coffman: 28:16

Yeah. I mean, I can actually speak to the fragility of paper directly because unfortunately, and this is a sad story, but unfortunately, a few years ago I lost my house to a wildfire. And, um, I, you know, this, this giant fire swept through the town that I was living in and my home burned up. I woke up at five in the morning, packed a very small bag. My house was full of smoke. Got out of there. Um, did not take much. And, you know, I had this bookshelf that had a bookcase of all of my journals over the last few years. You know, all those thoughts are gone now. And, um, you know, same thing for my wife's journals. You know, there were lots of very precious memories that just don't exist anymore because they were, you know, precariously in one single space. Uh, and they, they didn't, they didn't last the. They, they didn't stand the test of time. Uh, and you know, that that's something that's really powerful about technology and the way that we can use tools to like upload our thoughts, offload our thoughts, not just to have a single copy, but create something bigger is not having to worry about that anymore. And, um, I used to be a really big fan of paper and pencil. You might be surprised to hear that I don't really journal with paper anymore I had that experience did not necessarily set me up to want to keep doing that. Um, but I, I read this book this year, um, called, Oh man, I always forget the name of it because it's it's Oh, I it's called a human as media and it was recommended on Twitter by David Parell. Um, and have you read this book? Have you heard about this book?

Norman Chella: 29:53

uh, no, I feel like I've heard the title, but I don't know. What's it about.

Drew Coffman: 29:56

Yeah, it is a fascinating book. And basically the very short version of it is, um, this person kind of sets us up as saying, you know, there have been these evolutions of humanity and in media over time, you know, way, way back in the day, very early on in humanities, like. You know, evolution. Um, somebody was able to figure out writing. And when we were able to figure out writing, there was this emancipation of like communication because now, you know, everybody could write, everybody could, could put something down on a piece of paper and, and preserve it in a way that wasn't possible with oral language. And then as time went on, there was another evolution with the printing press, because now you didn't just have to have a single copy of something like my notebooks in my home, but you could, you could very evenly distribute words and, you know, knowledge could get out much faster, but in both of those situations, there's still a fragility, right. Because. You know, not everybody knew how to write. Not everybody had access to that. And then even if you were able to like publish something and print it, not everybody can have that distributed to them. And you know, I think about how throughout all of history there have been, I am sure many, many, many incredible voices of wisdom, sages, you know, people that had so much beautiful knowledge that impacted so many people, but their ideas and their thoughts were never able to get out of their community. You know, like they shared it with their people and then they died and then maybe there is some oral tradition passed down, but then it was gone and really to let thoughts leave a true legacy, there has to be this long distribution of thoughts. And in the book, human is media argues that we are once again in one of those really pivotable once again in one of those really pivotable. Wow. Once again, in one of those really pivotal moments in that. You know, at first there was this evolution of writing. Then there was this evolution of publishing. And now there's this emancipation of thought where I don't have to be some big shot to get my words printed in a book and distributed through the world. I can just do it by going online. And creating a blog. I can just do it by tweeting. You know, there's this even distribution now of people's thoughts that, you know, you no longer have to have the connections you no longer have to be in the right spot. You just have to have an internet connection in Rome feels like the answer to that in a way that blogs aren't in a way that social media platforms aren't because we already have seen how many of our thoughts that we've put online over the last few years. Are gone forever because the platform is deleted. You know, I was just, I tweeted at Connor just recently because he has this great, like early, early, early tweet talking about how his mother, um, is an immigrant. And like, I think it's a picture of her like selling hotdogs or something, you know, like really this interesting story of like, You know, I am the American dream because of what my parents did. And the photo was a white frog link. That's gone, you know, and I have plenty of those memories too. I have blogs that are deleted off the internet because the, the, the platform shut down and that isn't. That isn't the evolution, right? Like the evolution isn't you have the ability to share your thoughts, but it's going to be somewhere that might not be around for too long. Like that's actually worse than paper because at least with paper, you know, I can go down and find a copy of a book from 1930 still and hold it in my hands. If it, if it was able to make it this long, where now there's no copies of the stuff on the, on the internet that's been deleted. But with Rome, it's very clear, like, yeah, this is going to be around. I can download it. I can have it. It can be online. Like. You know, something to really, truly push that concept forward of like preservation and continuity and like communicating with future generations needs to be able to say, this is not going anywhere and we can promise you that it's not going anywhere. And when I post on Facebook or even when I tweet on Twitter, I don't necessarily feel that way. So that's not it. Right. And when I put something in my Rome graph, I'm very, very clear. This is going to be around for as long as I want it to be. And it'll be around longer than me, you know? And that that's, that's something that feels really special that you like. Can't really put a price tag on.

Norman Chella: 34:14

Hmm, then you'd be very particular about what you put into your own graph then, because if you have the very intention of defining the lifetime of your own graph to be beyond your bodily life. Then you want to make sure that the thoughts, the blocks, the notes that you're taking in are either evergreen or they will be retained or relevant even for, in even decades and even a century after which would be yeah.

Drew Coffman: 34:49

Definitely not.

Norman Chella: 34:50

Oh, definitely not. No. Okay.

Drew Coffman: 34:51

put my finger up. Yeah. It, you know, one of the things that I really noticed with my great-grandmother's journal is the things that I remember the most are the most mundane. Like, you know, I don't want to read about her, you know, I mean, I do want to read about her deep philosophical thoughts, but I also really love, um, hearing that she went on a date. And the guy pissed her off. Like that makes her human to me, you know, like that's really sweet and special. And you know, that's not a story that I've been told. It's probably not a story that she told her own daughter. Um, but because it's in this journal, it's preserved through time. So I mean, yeah, I mean, and I'm not, you know, I'm not expecting someone to be pouring over my Rome research graph. And that's, I was trying to say, like, I don't try to put that in the, in the forefront of my brain, because then it'll get weird, you know, and I'll start having this, this weird voice of, Oh, I have to be this wise person now, you know, like half the stuff in my room is crazy, but you know, if somebody cares about me, Then that might be interesting to them. And it's interesting to me, it's certainly going to be interesting to drew 10 years in the future or 20 years in the future. I'm going to be able to learn a lot from the cadence and the tone and the feelings and the thoughts and the energy of the person that exists here. Just like if I go back and look at tweets 10 years ago, I'm like, wow, that's a very different person, you know? And do I agree with them every time? Absolutely not. Like I think that would be a problem, right. Um, is it embarrassing sometimes, maybe, but that's like part of growing, you know, especially if you want to grow around community and grow in public, you just have to sort of be okay with that. But yeah, no, I, I, I try not to, you know, put on the like Sage mantle because I want it to be a place where. You know, I can just be myself and, and put down the things that I care about. Um, but I, but I definitely am like mad at myself for not having better book notes over the last 10 years, you know, like I've read so many books and, you know, they were highlights and I put the highlights in Kindle and now it's gone for some reason or, you know, um, Nobo or whatever. Amazon or whatever Barnes and Noble's version was, you know? And it's like, yeah, that's all gone. I, I wish that I had, um, not only like the highlights, but the thoughts, because I wish that when I had read those books 10 years ago and I revisit it, I could remember how that version of me felt when I was reading that kind of thing. You know? So to me there there's so much like beauty and context in that type of stuff. I am still very excited about like seeing more public book notes. I would love to, when I read a book, be able to go. And look at other people's Rome graphs and see what they got out of it, you know, like that feels so profound and important to me. So it's not just about necessarily the legacy. Um, but it's also about like the interactivity between people that are, that are building this and caring about this right now. Um, and obviously we're just scratching the surface of like public roams. Um, and I think there's a lot more to be done, uh, in the future of that.

Norman Chella: 37:44

Yeah, I've been thinking about that. Uh, public roams in the beginning, there were a few discussions about how roams when Rome graphs, when they are made, public are very difficult to navigate. If you are not a Chrome user, so accessibility then becomes a problem. If you have the intention of wanting to share such public knowledge, because it's a public graph after all, uh, with the rest of the world, how do you make it as easy to access or as easy to navigate as possible? Or do you even consider that because you have to care for things like the exploratory behavior of many different users who stumbled into the graph and they're like, Oh, what's this about? Or what's this book notes about? Um, so I've been contemplating that. Um, a lot, uh, recently, especially when we're coming up to things like paid roam graphs or premium room graphs, um, and, or public graphs that serve a specific purpose. Like for example, this show has its own, uh, Roman fem graph. So like all the transcripts are, are linked. Uh, so that's, that's brought up some very interesting behaviors. So I.

Drew Coffman: 38:50

think that you, I think you hacked it sort of to have the left sidebar be kind of an index, right. Or like, you know, I know that it's like a daily note way down at the bottom that says start here. And I think you can also use the index right. To like kind of navigate a bit on the Rome FM public

Norman Chella: 39:06

Yeah, so I made it so that I did not use the daily notes page at all. Like as soon as you click on, uh, the main room, if I'm graph link, it will immediately go to the page, start here and. Um, the reason why I chose to do it like that was because since, since this is a, and we can probably talk about this and maybe you have some thoughts on this. Um, since this is a, a public graph that is derived from my private graph, then it is filtered information, which means I already have an intentional structure or I'm trying to narrow the different ways that a person might be able to explore the graph. So. I will try my best to always send people to the start here page first. And then from there, they can do whatever they want, uh, that is becoming hard to do because people are still cheating. And the way that it would do that is like, for example, this entire graph is public. And I would have notes like on the fly as I'm talking to guests and these episodes aren't even out yet, but I would let people know, Hey, I talked to this person before and it would search the name. On the graph, like they cheated, like they, they looked ahead. I'm like, Oh shit. Um, so I had to deal with that in some way. Uh, but, uh, other than that, it's, it's interesting because the behaviors of people who stumble into graphs are very similar to hypertext websites, where you try to explore all these different notes, all it's different, you know, digital gardens, et cetera, et cetera. But Rome has that extra layer of linked to references. Unthink references. Uh, blocks that can be referenced, uh, once multiplayer room comes out, uh, and many more. So I hope to see that more in the future and, Oh yeah. So on the, on the thing that I, I wanted to hear your thoughts on this. So, um, if you think of a, if you think of a two by two square and on one hand, it's a public graph, public graph, sorry. On one hand, it's. A yeah, sorry. On one hand is a public graph, private graph. And on the other side is a public graph, private graph. So each square represents the potential relationship between two types of graphs, a public graph, or a private graph. There were discussions about how would you define the relationship between these two graphs in each of these squares? So, as an example, once multiplayer Rome comes out and we have the ability to reference other people's blocks. Say that a public graph references a block from another public graph, then you can say on the no, uh, my book notes graph references, your book notes graph. And we created discussion between the both of us about our interpretation of this same book that could be possible. Right. So you would have a public discussion private to public. Means that it's a filter where my private notes are only for me, but I will only filter out a certain percentage of my notes onto a public graph. So it's like a display or like an exhibition right. Public to private is when you have a public that's pository of notes and you want to bring it into your own private graph for further processing or further summarization, et cetera. And private to private is very close to like a Twitter DM. It's just a private message between two. You know, private users and their ideas of like, Oh, what if I just like, copy paste D block riff for you in Twitter. And then you can just like, look at the secret message I sent for you or something like that. So we're seeing possibilities like that. And I'm curious to hear your thoughts on what's a, what is exciting you the most about multiplayer Rome? Since this is something that we've never really seen yet, uh, up until he will come out.

Drew Coffman: 42:54

Yeah, totally. I mean, it is a big part of why I care about Rome in the first place. Um, I, I have known for a long time that I'm the kind of person that. When I do something creative, I'm doing it to build, create, I'm sorry. I'm doing it to build community. I don't like making things in a bubble. It's not interesting to me. Like, you know, if I had to write in private or secret and not share with anybody, I just wouldn't do it because that's not, that's not interesting. Um, I want feedback. I want community. I want people to, to read or care, you know, read the things that I write. Look at the things that I'm making care about, the things that I care about. That's like a huge factor for me. And so, you know, it's, it's part of why anything that feels single-player even reading a book. Is is like, not as good, like I'm the guy that, you know, in my friend group, I'm always like, Oh, have you read this? Oh, have you seen this? You know, like, I'm that kind of person, you know, Oh, actually I just read this thing, you know, like my wife jokes about it all the time that I do it, maybe a little too often, especially with her who has to deal with me 24, seven, three 65, you know? Um, but it's just, just like the way that my brain works. I like sharing, like sharing is an important core. Belief a core factor of why I do anything. And so the idea of multiplayer Rome is really important to me because I think that it, it kind of unlocks the next step of sort of unlocks the next step of what I've always wanted. Like blogging to me. I actually started a blog right before I found Rome. Um, you know, 20th blog I've started. Some of them have been successful. Some of them have been less successful. The last one that I had was on medium, it was doing really well. I just ended up hating medium because it like got crazy. Uh, and so, you know, another reason why I'm really liking Rome is like, I'm pretty much done hitching my wagon to these free tools. So that like, I just can't know about, I want to be able to pay money, even if it's a lot of money to somebody, because I feel much more confident in the future of that, if that's what I'm doing. So anyways, I started this blog, but what I was really trying to do before I knew the term was make a, um, a digital garden, you know, like I didn't, I hadn't heard about that. I didn't know what that was. But, um, I'll, I'll find a picture and send it to you or something, but I deleted it now because I'm like, Oh no, Rome is what I really wanted to do. But I started building like a very nineties vibe, like under construction, Wiki, like I had the like gifts of the construction guy digging and stuff, you know, um, in every single article that I was writing, every single thought that I was writing, I was linking to other thoughts. And I had all of these like meta categories. And I was like, I don't, none of these, you know, blogs are always sorted by time. None of these have anything to do with time. I'm not writing some hot take on the newest thing I'm writing about the way that we interact with each other. I'm writing about, you know, this I'm writing about that. So I don't care about date hierarchy. I actually care about like the intimacy and the interconnected nature of these different thoughts to one another. I'm I'm describing Rome and I'm describing digital gardening, but it was before I had found Rome, it was before I had heard the term digital gardening. And, and so, you know, The, the thing that I liked about it was that I could share them with people on Twitter. The thing that I didn't like about it was that no one could do anything with them. You know, like blogs, notoriously, you know, like their comment sections are dead. If they exist at all. Sharing a blog on Twitter, you get such little interaction because you know, you have to make them click through and do this different stuff. This was before I had found visa, who is, you know, like the King of like actually don't blog, just make these gigantic Twitter threads that you can like keep updated all the time, which I've started doing more and more because I've been inspired by that. But the thing that gets me excited about Rome multiplayer is. Being able to do that thing that I was trying to do on my own, this digital gardening, but doing it in a way that's communal like literal, communal gardening, you know, to be able to, I actually don't know. I really care if it's public, private, private, public, whatever. Um, I had heard Connor, I think a long time ago, say that like maybe what you would end up being able to do in the future is like, Say this page and everything that it links to is public. Like that would make a lot of sense to me. Like anything that this page touches make public, you know, like all this stuff that's not related to don't make public, whatever. Like I could see myself doing that. I would very happily just make my private room, a public room. I don't care. It's not like I have any secrets inside there. I just don't think that it's of much value in its current form because it's so chaotic, you know, like, um, What's his, uh, what's his name? Max? Maximillian something. Um, I want to know his name, max. Yeah. Maximillian Shoals, um, posted on, on Twitter recently, like this beautiful index page that he made that like made his private Rome very like, um, You know, recognizable and searchable and like, I want to build something like that. And then maybe I'll toggle my, my private room public. Uh, but, uh, the thing that gets me excited is, is the collaborate, the collaboration. So I don't want you to take my thoughts and put them in your, I don't want you to take my thoughts that are in my silo and put them in your silo. I want us to have a shared space where we can do it. You know, like that's, that's the thing that really gets me excited about this. And, you know, I feel that way for. Um, book notes. I think that's a great use of it. Every time that I read a book, my book notes are very scattershot. You know, I'm not the kind of guy that's taking notes every single way. It'll be like chapter two, a bunch chapter 14, a bunch, you know, like I'm, I'm that kind of person where like, I only really want to put into things that like really resonated with me, but. I really want to know what resonated with you. So if, if chapter eight resonated with you in a way that it didn't impact me, I will be impacted because you, a person that I care about was impacted. So like that's the kind of levels of collaboration that I want to see. And when I'm writing on a thought or thinking about something, and I realize that you've written about the same thing or thinking about the same thing. I want to know what you're thinking about right now. Like that's why I use Twitter all the time. Anytime that I watch a movie, anytime that I read a book, anytime that I find something fascinating, I do a filter follow search, which means that I see only the people that I'm following. And I just type the word in yesterday. I had rewatched a bit of the movie, the last temptation, uh, and it's like one of my favorite movies, Martin Scorsese. And I just typed in last temptation, you know, saw who I was following that, um, had talked about it before and lo and behold, um, one of the. The, the new acquaintances. I found a guy named Don maxler had not only posted about last temptation, but I posted the very scene that I was thinking about. And had his own thoughts about that. And now that, that moment where I watched something that impacted me, isn't just a moment where I was impacted. It was a moment where I was impacted and I know this other person who I'm getting to know was also impacted. And the thing that he took away from the scene was slightly different from the thing that I took away from the scene. And it just, it grows and grows and grows. It builds and builds and builds in those levels of understanding and those levels of community or the parts that I'm I'm interested in, in, in Twitter is like, Terrible for this, you know, like it's not, I don't, I can't have a good conversation on Twitter about this. You know, I had to like, you know, let's see his, his tweet was from, uh, March, you know, so here I am. Some guy being like, Hey, remember that thing you talked about in March, I'm bringing it back up. Like, that's not what necessarily Twitter's for, but if I were to resurface a note in your Rome graph from six months ago, you would get it. You'd be like, yeah, that's awesome. That's why I put it there. You know, that's not necessarily why people are tweeting. But it's why they're using their own graph. So because the context and because the intent is rediscovery, when someone else rediscovers your thought and wants to build on it, it feels natural in a way that no other platform really allows for that. So, you know, that's a big part of why I think it's important is because that concept of resurfacing is not only like possible. But it's encouraged and expected. So, you know, as we get these multiplayer instances, I know that they won't only exist in a moment, but they can be long-term projects that new people are constantly finding constantly adding to. And that feels really cool because I don't want to think about something, pick it up. And put it down and never think about it again. I want somebody to remind me of that thing that I cared about and bring their own insights to the table and like resurface it back into my mind.

Norman Chella: 51:38

we're at this point, we're redefining social media or social interaction at this point, because if, if Rome is going to have multiplayer Rome and I mean, totally the rum research team can correct me if I am getting this completely wrong. But if we are able to reference our people's blocks, it would mean that there is one giant universal graph. That is the earth. And then each and every block is unique in itself. Therefore that allows us to do things like referencing other people's blocks. If you redefined social media, from this perspective, we can now interact with each other through not the persona that we have put on our social media profiles, but our most intimate forms of ourselves. Other than our physical bodies, like in person, which are our notes. So like, if, for example, you have, you know, notes on this movie, and then I have this notes on these movies on this movie and, you know, they are still just as relevant as, uh, as they are to you right now. Like your thoughts on that movie, et cetera, instead of tweeting at you, instead of emailing you, instead of messaging you on Facebook and be like, Hey, remember that movie 10 months ago? Uh, I can. Put a block under your block or referenced or block directly like tap right into your notes. Like directly of course we have consent. Um, and from there we strike up a conversation that may bring up something that was of interest, or maybe still is, but isn't your priority right now, but rediscovery, which is probably a, a feature in long-forgotten in most social media platforms, rediscovery, exit, maybe YouTube, like YouTube is a different thing. Um, That putting, putting that first, before any other piece of social media, uh, where you need to be looking at the most latest tweets or the most trendy of things where we have to be like, you know, people are trying to gain for attention, which is a whole different thing altogether. I really want to see that happen because I was on the verge of not really wanting to be on Twitter or on any social media platform. Cause I've had very bad experiences with. This lots of fake personas or people not really being on this or not really sharing so much of their, of their knowledge that they're willing to reciprocate a value. But now that we have a place like Rome, or at least this small circle, uh, in Twitter, people are willing to give back. And, uh, that is a beautiful, beautiful thing. I would love to see like Connor. Um, I'm not sure if fighting against Twitter's the right word, but setting. Foundation for something like Twitter interactions, but with blocks instead of tweets, like if we can get blocked threads, like block threads on a feat, like if you, if you imagine a screen and instead of daily notes, pager, sidebar, then you're a right bar. You have your daily notes, page, your sidebar, and then a feed of blocks. Like, yeah. I mean, we're seeing other people like. Throwing out ideas like, Oh, can we subscribe to someone's graph and then see latest blocks being built or something like that. That'd be pretty cool. I'm really excited for that.

Drew Coffman: 54:53

I, I mean, you know, the, the closest thing we have to like a public realm is Twitter, because it's all of these people's blocks or tweets, you know, like kind of just scattered throughout time and preserved, but you know, there's no auto-complete right. Like I am an avid Twitter searcher. I probably use Twitter as a search engine. As much, if not more as I use it as a social network, but it's horrible, you know, like I have to do 50 searches to find the thing that I'm looking for. Cause I have to try a word, Oh, maybe this other word. Oh, this so that, you know, like it's, it's very challenging where in Rome, you know, I can usually find the thing that I'm looking for in one or two tries because I'm just, you know, auto completing until I find the thing that I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm trying to get at. But yeah, I mean, I, I totally agree with you that, that concept of like, Multiplayer in that aspect of being able to find other people's thoughts on a thing is so valuable. Um, I wish that teenage me had that because when I was younger, like as college aged me, because when I was younger, um, I'm a Christian and I used to run a Bible study. And I was actually in this sort of weird phase where I had this little community built and there are all these people, but I didn't really have like a church that I was a part of. Um, and, and because of that, and I had to run this weekly Bible study and I had to talk about something and I would always feel like stressed about that. Like, I don't have like a normal church. That's like, Telling me to read something or, or sharing insights with me. So I had to, I downloaded a bunch of podcasts and I would listen to a bunch of things and I would try to take as many notes and find some insights that I thought were worth sharing with the group. But what if I had a bunch of people that I, I valued their thoughts that were also Christians that had rooms. That when I thought I wanted, I don't know what I should talk about today. I don't know what I'm talking about this week. I wish that I could talk about this subject. I would able, I would be able to look at these public rooms and find people's notes on there. Their own Bible studies, their own experiences, searching through the Bible. That would be so much more valuable to me than having to find five. Big shot, pastors that have podcasts and regurgitate their thoughts to the group that I had. I never felt good about that, but you know, this is, it's sort of going back to that concept in that book. I was talking about human as media, you know, when you get into worlds where, when you get into worlds where like communication is not only. Important, but, but like sacred, you know, I didn't feel comfortable as a 19 year old making up thoughts about the Bible. I actually think now that I, I should've felt okay doing that, but I didn't, you know, I wanted somebody who is mentoring me and leading me into that. But because we have only given the right to publish to the people who are privileged to publish, there's only this small amount of information that actually is like, The information that we can take and the information that we can glean from. Whereas now, as you know, the world has already changed so much since that, you know, that was 10 years ago, I'm 30 now. Um, and the world has already changed so much that. You know, I would probably, if I was in that same situation, just like Google stuff and find, you know, the weird little Christian bloggers that are doing their own thing and having their own thoughts. And I would be much happier, like taking their insights, but, but still there's the layer of disconnect where those aren't people that I'm talking to, those aren't people that I'm in communication with. But you know, if, if there are people that. I have already found so many like-minded people, not just that care about technology that, but care about spirituality through Rome, because if you're the kind of person that's willing to dump large amounts of information into a, you know, networked thought space, you're probably the kind of person that like I want to hang out with. Right? Like that's, that's sort of how we all feel is like, Oh my people like you, if you're doing it this, like, we have a lot in common, um, in. If you're doing it, you're probably also doing it because you want to talk with others where, when you have a blog, you don't necessarily flip that switch where you're saying, and now please talk to me. Like, there's still a little bit of this. Like I'm putting this out into the world and I get to choose whether or not like I reciprocate and we have these conversations back and forth, but I haven't met anyone in Rome that has felt that way. That's like, no, actually, you know, I'm just putting my thoughts out here, please. Let's not like take this the level further up to discussion and, and that that's a significant change, right? Like the fact that the people that are building roams today at least are all willing to continuously engage in conversation and move thoughts forward feels way different than blogging feels way different than tweeting feels way different than publishing a book. And I think that there are so many people who benefit from that, that, that covering that layer of like, Mentorship or thought leadership that comes from that, where they say, okay, now I'm not alone in now. Not only am I not alone, but I can now talk to these people that are feeling similar ways as me. You're talking about similar things that I'm talking about. Like there's just, there's so much value there to unpack that is like, It's almost hard to talk about because we don't have a context for it. There's there hasn't been a website or a platform or a social network or a blogging, whatever that has really like taken that on in the way that Rome can in the future.

Norman Chella: 1:00:13

yeah. The the possibilities, uh, as a result of the tool coming in, allow more voices to really, sorry. No, let me reword that. The possibilities that Rome provides as a result, I feel like it brings reassurance. And that's huge. Like that is huge. And I mean, you've, you've said that we've started a few blogs before. Uh, I have, uh, as well, and I have a few blogs that have, you know, uh, died, but I've let it died on purpose because with the amount of embarrassment and with the amount of weird stuff that I was writing on there, I would rather let it perish than have it shared with the rest of the world. But. But I remembered that part of trying to start something like that, because embarking on something like creating content or, you know, writing an article or publishing a blog post, or, you know, just continuing a blog over time, whatever it can, whatever it may be. There's this it's like facing in the mirror and asking yourself, like, am I worth listening to, or, you know, are people going to. Are people going to resonate with me, there's a lot of fears and really exposing these thoughts that you tried your best to convey. And then now you're subject to the spotlight where other people can read it and they can comment negativity, or they may not think that your voice is valuable enough that they will just ignore you, et cetera. So lots and lots of potential doubts and worries, but with tools like Rome and even not just Rome, even just other tools like notion, uh, or. The acceptance of people publishing book notes online. Like that's technically also a recent thing. I don't think I remember anyone doing that 10 years ago or 20 years ago. Um, it's great to see all this published online. It's great to see all of this willingness to have such. I call them informal mediums and informal being relative because they are relative. They're relatively informal when compared to large published books or books that are pushed by large corporations or large publishing houses, because that really sets the sets the tone for what a traditional thought leader would be. Because, you know, as long as you have a book, you are like a full-on, Oh, you're a leader. Everyone should listen to you, et cetera. So. If you have something like row, man, people can resonate with that and people can resonate with your notes and your messages and your thoughts on your block, your blocks, and talk to you. Even if it's just a few conversations here and there, like you have done your job and you've done it very well. So I do have to give massive props to Rome for not even its intended feature, but the reassurance that chaos is fine. Like chaos is accepted. And chaos can be shared by other people and chaos can be marketed or a shared view to people. Like people can realize that they look at Rome cult or this culture, or this group of, uh, what, what, what does Connor call the magical trash pandas, trying to mix all these notes together and just junkyard of weird, chaotic thoughts and be like, Hey, join us. You're perfectly fine. You fit the right criteria. You should be. Uh, okay. Have you ever asked people. Maybe who are not involved in their own research yet? What do they think about, uh, roam cult or even just on people surrounding the tool?

Drew Coffman: 1:03:35

Yeah. I mean, I think that there's like a coming from tech, Twitter, there's this skepticism, um, that surrounds anything new that has a Catholicism around it. I mean, I think also. It doesn't help that a lot of the people that are part of it, um, we're probably just as optimistic and positive about notion before they like dumped it and came over here. So it's like, well, didn't you just do this about something else? Like, I, I, you know, we're so accustomed to that. Um, especially because we sort of live in that world where. Even though I said, we expect our like, tools to exist, like Facebook and Twitter for the longterm. You know, there's always the new app that comes out that we're like, is this going to be around in six months? I guess I'll go and register my name there. Um, but I don't know if it's going to actually be around. And then you kind of have to gauge like, is everyone using it? Are they not, you know, like I have a. You know, library if dead apps, I'm sure. Um, you could create like a folder. That's like a graveyard for all this stuff that people tried and failed. Um, so I think there's a skepticism there. I have been impressed and interested to see that that skepticism is, um, kind of lifting a little bit faster than I anticipated. Um, even in like the tech, journalism crowd. Um, there's a guy named Casey Newton. Is that his

Norman Chella: 1:04:51

Yeah. Casey nation. Yeah.

Drew Coffman: 1:04:54

Casey. Yeah. Casey Newton, who. Um, just posted recently that he's been using the verge quite a bit. I'm sorry. He's been using Rome research quite a bit. And, uh, and I thought that he would probably be one of those people who was like, this is weird. You know, this is the, the new hotness that's going to be gone in six months. Um, but you know, I think that his tweet was like, I can't imagine writing anywhere else now that I've, I've used this. Um, and I think that's what, you know, anybody who's accustomed to writing on the regular, um, sees the benefit of this so quickly in a way that doesn't exactly. Work with other tools. Um, I think that there's plenty of value in a lot of the other tools. Um, and I think that there's good. Like there's good fanaticism, like, you know, I, I imagine that it feels great to be a part of their own research team and see the amount of people that are just happy and excited and talking and making memes and, you know, all these things like it has to feel good as a person who's making this. So, you know, I don't necessarily think that. The problem is that people get fanatic. I think the problem is that people get fanatic and then the tool dies anyways. You know, like I always think back to, um, Google wave, like Google wave was my first like heartbreak where I was like, Oh my gosh, I can see the future of technology in this. You know, like, you know, it was pre Google docs. So it was like collaborative. Note-taking doing all these things in one spot. You know, every tech article that I read about it was, you know, Super positive and like, wow, like they demoed it and it works the way that they said, and we actually were able to try it and it's not like horrible and buggy, and this is amazing. And then it was gone, you know, like it didn't matter that people loved it. It didn't matter that it changed people's lives, you know, same thing for like, Google reader. It didn't matter that it was a good product that was used every day. It just gone all of a sudden it's gone. And, you know, there are people that have used note taking apps or people that have used productivity tools. There are people that have used all kinds of different things, social networks, whatever. And no matter how many people use it, no matter how many people wanted to keep using it, it just disappears because that's what tech does sometimes. Um, but I think that it's becoming clear that Rome doesn't fit in that category. It's not. The app, that's trying to get 1 billion users and if it doesn't get them, you know, it's going to close down. Like it's not the thing that has to make all of this money back because it took too much VC. Like they have a clear, cautious future plan that they are going to act out. Um, and I think that just changes. People's understanding of like, Oh yeah, this is actually good. And you know, the people that seem like they are the most, um, Anti roam, Colt as it's called, I think are just people that like chose another tool. And they're like, no, but like my tools better, you know? Um, I think you're always going to have that, right. Like, X-bar I'm I'm I used to be like a huge gamer when I was a kid, you know, and who doesn't remember the Sony, Nintendo, Microsoft Sega Wars, you know, like that will always exist. Right? When you put two people, um, that are making things that are similar, that have two groups that are, you know, caring about things that are similar, those groups will always fight and skirmish it's just is like, what will happen, you know, as human nature. So, um, but I I'm very happy that, you know, The defining characteristic of the people who are caring about Rome research and talking about it in public is the friendliness, you know, like there is this, this consistent like friendliness, um, you know, people. I always see people saying, you know, sharing my videos, sharing different things that I'm making, because people said, I don't get this. What should I do? You know? And like, there's always people that are willing to say, you should try this, you should do this. You should do this. Have you considered this? And not in like a pushy aggressive way, but just in like this helped me. Maybe it'll help you. Or, you know, I understand the value of this. Maybe if you understand the value of this too, that'll be beneficial. And that feels really special because it doesn't feel it's the right balance between helpful. Um, and gracious that a lot of other communities aren't able to like tackle.

Norman Chella: 1:08:58

Yeah. Th those are some of the very interesting aspects of a community centered around a tool. And the closest to that I've seen as notion. So notion would be more of a couple of thought leaders or a couple of notion experts who would be really, really willing to share their workflows, their templates, et cetera. And. With that they, they grow following. And from there to have, you know, a certain set of users that follow their YouTube channel or, um, their posts all the time and, and these experts, they know each other by proxy because state date, all of them use notions. So it's like, there's this interesting exclusive circle of notion experts. And it's really interesting to have these chapters that people who use notion for all kinds of use cases. And I remember being relatively involved in that because I was using notion for quite a while, uh, last year. And just following the threads of all these experts and seeing how they gather and seeing how they exude their personality through how they teach a notion is a very slow paced. You can build things just like how you would want to see it. It's very pretty, it's a very pretty app. So, you know, aesthetically, like from an aesthetic point of view, if you like notion you probably have similar tastes in aesthetics, like maybe that's a possibility right there and on Rome, We have to, you have to have had tackled the, not to make a pun out of it. The notion of chaotic writing, or at least what I call it in my head writing in madness. So. When you ride a madness, it doesn't matter. What's written down as long as it is written down, but maybe you can use it sometime in the future and Rome being like the only tool that has accepted that so far has given birth to a space or a corner of the world where anyone who looks in that corner or in that direction, who is currently finding a way to house. All of that mad writing that they've been doing is looking at that engaging whether or not do they fit. Because it's such a weird and strangely intimate part of our, why? I mean, I call it writing life because you don't always want to show your messy, chaotic, whatever notes to people. Most of the time we have this very interesting first impression where what you post online must be refined. Must have proper grammar, maybe eaters, SEO, maybe there's some kind of like amazing blog post and meta categories, et cetera. Um, th the conventional criteria that a blog would have, but when we get to here, the community is just amazing. Yeah, sure. We can get very cultish, but I think that's part of the banter. And I have a strange feeling that I am quite a big factor to that, uh, that I'm willing to add in like random Latin phrases to welcome new users, uh, or whenever someone's on the believer plan that I'm like, Oh, credo. Right. And, um, by directional linking everything that's on Twitter, even though that doesn't have any, that doesn't serve any purpose, but I've realized that that's some sort of guerrilla marketing, because the more that we fake. Link words on our tweets don't want that people would ask, like, why are you guys doing that? And then that's enough, excuse to be like, Hey, you should check out this tool. And I'm in pure pitch mode. Uh, and that's when it gets pretty, uh, interesting way before, before we move on from that bit. I actually, and not as you brought up the, uh, Uh, the console Wars from ages ago, I know that you do a lot of, uh, tweet threads on various things that bring up quite a number of Nick nostalgic feelings. Cause I realized that a lot of things that you post about it, I'm like, Oh wow. I haven't seen that like 20, 30 years. So it's really interesting that that it's either that we've, we've watched similar things. Um, and, uh, yeah, I was going to ask what was the most nostalgic. Video games, sound of your childhood.

Drew Coffman: 1:13:05

Mm. Yeah, I, I included it in the Twitter thread. Actually. It was definitely the sound of a PS two starting up. And it's, it's one of those things. Yeah. I always post these random nostalgic videos. Um, I like, I sort of think in video, um, It's it's one of the formats that like makes them of sense to me. Um, and so I try to include a lot of like video clips and different things on Twitter, because it feels like something that I'm set up to do. And it it's like, uh, a helpful way of, of talking. You know, like if I tweet, does anyone remember the PS two intro sound, or I say, who remembers this? And I, you know, play the sound like the second thing is much more powerful and evocative, especially when I'm trying to make people like, remember something, you know, um, But yeah, like, uh, I like whenever, whenever I, I have those nostalgic moments, which I think I actually have more often because of Rome, because I'm doing these daily note taking experiences where I'm processing and thinking and externalizing the things that would usually be fleeting thoughts. Um, but yeah, I, uh, I typically try to post those to Twitter to see who else those things resonate with. But yeah, I. There's a, there's a good like YouTube video. I found about the subject recently, um, where it was sort of talking about like each of the PlayStation sounds over time has its own vibe. Um, and the PS one specifically it's sorta like weirdly like dark and not creepy, but like the, the PlayStation one sound is very like happy and kind of positive. And the PS two has this weird, like a femural thing. And you're like descending in this city of darkness. And like, it's very strange when you like, kind of. Think about it outside of the context of just like, yeah. That's what the PS two sounds like. Um, but yeah, I mean, man here, I can hear it playing in my head right now and who knows how many times I heard in my childhood. Right. Every single time that I turned it on to play a game, um, you know, many, many times a day. So yeah, if you. I don't have a, my, my Twitter is not necessarily a Twitter of strategy. You know, I'm not trying to be like the blanket guy. Um, it's sort of like, these are things that popped into my head and I liked hope, hope you enjoy. Um, so if you want a random dose of nostalgia, uh, you know, that's, that's what I try to provide every once in a while on Twitter.

Norman Chella: 1:15:25

yeah. Going the visa route basically like if you're thinking out loud and your, your threads are of any topic, as long as it captures your attention, that is the only criteria. And that is the best criteria. And I fully agree with that. Um, I think it's, I think it's kind of, there's a certain pressure behind trying to grow once followers on Twitter, if he had the intention. Like if you, if you get on Twitter and he had the intention, uh, trying to grow once followers by niching ourselves into a, like you said, the blank guy. And I feel like that's, that's honestly very disadvantages, uh, to someone because. It sort of, in my opinion, maybe it's a very strong one. Someone else can completely disagree me, but it really dehumanizes the person because you're not always thinking about this one topic 24 seven, no way. Right. Like if it's like, if it's, if you're in here and you're your niches like writing, for example, you're not always thinking about writing all the time. Like there are times where he'd be thinking about food or like, you know, you run out of toilet paper or you're in a bathroom unit emergency, or you're thinking about the love of your life or your family or something nostalgic from ages ago or inspirations that have nothing to do with writing. Maybe they play a part. But the thing is in the pursuit of trying to showcase to the world, just how human we are balancing that with trying to showcase to the world how useful we are. Becomes a very difficult thing to try to, I mean, can I use balance again, but to try to balance and juggle between the both of them, just because there's only so much we can talk about on the same thing. So I really do appreciate that you can go full on with like any topic, no matter if it's nostalgia or on something that you've been interested in, interested in, because like, If it's not resonating with me, I could just scroll down. I mean, just like anyone else would just scroll down with anything on their feed, but if it's something that brings up memories from like 15 years ago or something, I would totally vibe with that. Like, it's just hilarious to me.

Drew Coffman: 1:17:37

Yeah, I've always, you know, again, like this is one of the things where, you know, you'll hear me use the word community one way too many times in this conversation, but it's because it's so valuable to me, but it's something that I've really appreciated about the new sort of bubble. I found myself in as I've been exploring, um, using rum research because I've probably. Doubled the amount of people that I'm following on Twitter over the last few months, because I found so many new interesting people, but, you know, following along in tech Twitter, it felt very, very like, Ooh, is this like, can I, can I post this right now? Like everyone's talking about technology all the time. Is it okay for me to post this and, you know, I feel the same way. People like tweet about sports. I'm not a sports guy. I'll be like, man, I do not know what this person is talking about. And now I know like biweekly, I have to deal with them, you know, live, tweeting some game that I'm not following in the slightest. And, you know, I wish that there was a better way for Twitter to kind of. No, push those tweets to the side, um, without like fully buying into the algorithm and the timeline. But, um, I don't really feel the way that I used to feel about like, is this okay to. Twitter not because, you know, I've, I've grown my bubble to be as such that people are constantly talking about a variety of things all the time. So, you know, again, it's not necessarily like a strategic thing. Um, but it's something that I think is good. And, you know, at the beginning of this year, I read, uh, Walter Isaacson's biography of Leonardo da Vinci. And, you know, ultimate Renaissance man definition of a Renaissance man, um, that guy could not follow a single thread to save his life. Like he was constantly looking at new things, constantly obsessed with something different, you know, you know, like half of, you know, a good quarter of the book is spent with, um, It is spent documenting him writing about birds. I would imagine that if you went and talked to those people, they would have no idea that Leonardo da Vinci spent any time writing about birds. You know, that is not a thing that has hit popular culture. They're like, didn't he just paint? No, he did not just paint. He did quite a few things and went on quite a few rabbit trails. Um, and you know, it just has it, you, you say it's like disadvantage disadvantageous to like. Kind of shoehorn yourself in to a certain like thing. I would argue that through, throughout a lot of social media, it has actually been extremely advantageous to do that because it's the only way to really like gain a foothold. And it's only now becoming a bad idea because we are only now allowing ourselves to really like be full people. But you know, if you go on Tik TOK, Look at the people that are crushing it on Tik TOK, you're going to see the same tick-tock on their grid a hundred times, you know, like that it has been the growth hack for so long that I have never liked, you know, I want to reject it. I don't want to be a part of it. And it feels like tools like Rome are the, are the tools being built by the people and for the people that aren't interested in, that kind of stuff, you know, like, um, the, the YouTube videos that I've been making it's. Very much like a quarantine time project where it's like, you know what? This feels like a great thing to spend my time doing right now. The next video that I do is probably going to be on like a movie that I watched and want to like add a criticism to, is that what people are necessarily expecting after I've made a few like Rome research, videos and stuff. Maybe not, but like, I don't care. I'm not interested in like boxing myself in that far in, in interspersed between, um, my videos about Rome or videos about, uh, you know, the fire that I experienced or videos about this or videos about that. Um, and I'm finding people like visa and Michael Ashcroft and different, you know, different folks who are doing similar things where, you know, they're talking about what inspires them, talking about what impacts them. And that's what I care about. Well, I don't care about going to the guy that says the same thing, 20 different ways, 20 different days in a row. I want to follow the people who I have a connection with that are constantly surfacing the things that inspire them that might inspire me. And the fact that we have a tool that can do that, the fact that we've built a community that can do that feels so good to me in a way that I haven't really found online for a long time. It almost feels nineties. You know, like it sort of feels like a throwback, which is very much in line with the like hypertext hyperlink HyperCard vibes that Rome research often has, you know, it's like, For the people that are nostalgic for when it felt a little less corporate, when it felt a little less like growth, hacky, marketing centric, all this stuff, you know, like this is a community that's building for that, for the future that was coming that got sidelined by the present that we have. It's like a, it's a complex sentence, but you understand that, you know, like what I mean by that? Uh, so yeah, it just. I love it so much. And I'm so glad to feel comfortable and confident, just doing whatever I want and knowing that other people are doing the exact same thing.

Norman Chella: 1:22:41

yeah, like a modern Renaissance, especially when you see other names like visa and Michael, uh, you know, pumping up these YouTube videos where, you know, they're not trying to, they're not trying to hack the YouTube system or anything. It's more like they, they are willingly building. A circle of people that they're willing to connect with either through their own interests or just the prolific publishing of videos and thoughts and attracting people through that instead of like, you know, going through an ultimate guide of content, marketing and SEO, and then trying to perfect, uh, their image online, it's rather the flaws and the awkwardness. And the pauses and a lack of editing on their videos, maybe, um, that may attract them remain, make them more relatable or, uh, may humanize them better. It's just that they're exploring alternative mediums, which makes it much more, uh, interesting. You did bring up Leonardo da Vinci though. And I was going to ask you something about that since, uh, uh, Isaacson's book is like probably one of my favorite books of all time, because DaVinci has always been such a huge figure of inspiration, uh, for mine, uh, of, for me. Because of the way that he navigates his attention towards things like his notebooks can range from whatever topic it may be in any medium whatsoever, whether it would be art and illustration, a cross section of a bird, or like war machines that may or may not fly or may or may not kill may not even work. Um, but in a, but in an environment where this was supported, It felt really encouraging to see that his scattered or the way that he would shall we say point his as his attention towards things is accepted. So seeing that come back now. But on a smaller scale between these people that we recognize is a brilliant, but, uh, there is something that, uh, in your video that you brought up, uh, when you were talking about this book where you mentioned the Mona Lisa, and there was a bit at the end where the Mona Lisa is the combination of all the, all the things, the experiences D observations that you're not at, the Vinci has made. So let me ask you something that may be a little bit difficult to ask. Uh, what would your Mona Lisa consist of?

Drew Coffman: 1:25:04

Hmm. No, that's a great question. Um, I, I think that because we're in such a nascent stage of Rome, there still feels like we're in this like very early, just like compiling mode and like getting to know the tool and learn it. But I, I definitely think that we're going to see a lot of people who. Have finished works in some way or another that STEM from Rome and maybe live in Rome. You know, I don't necessarily think that it just means like I made a book because of all these things that I was able to connect in Rome. Like I think that's the, the very beginning, the most rudimentary form. I think that there's something bigger and I've always had this, um, I actually have like a first draft of a book, um, written living in a hierarchy of files and folders, which is why I've not turned it into anything more. Cause that like bores me so much. Um, but I've always had this, this like desire to create, um, sort of like a choose your own adventure book of creativity, um, sort of like. There's no right. There's no wrong way to create. There's no right way to create. One of the first things that I did as a creative person was learned to be a photographer. I just did it. I just bought a camera and took a trip to Guatemala where a friend of mine lived and learned how to take it photos. Like, what is this style do? Oh, what's aperture. Like I had to learn it that way. And that was a perfectly normal and legitimate way to learn a creative craft. Uh, and you know, now I have, uh, you know, uh, like a camera that's much better at taking photos than the weird crappy, um, Cannon with the kit lens that I had 10 years or 15 years ago. Um, but, um, I'm still on the journey of learning and there are people that have, have learned and gone on a photographic journey in a way that's totally different than me. So I had this idea of creating this sort of like choose your own adventure of creative tasks and creative activity and creative action, um, that you kind of clicked through as you figured out your own vibe. And I've really been wanting to. Put that in Rome, uh, in some way, but is that my Mona Lisa? No, I think that's my first weird, I think that's my, um, uh, index of birds or whatever Leonardo da Vinci, you know, was working. You know, I think it's something that I want to fiddle with and mess with and care about and, you know, work on the details for a long time. Um, you know, the, the quote that I think is so powerful, About that, that ending kind of conclusion about the Mona Lisa in Isaacson's book is him saying. Everything that Leonardo did, everything that he cared about is represented in the Mona Lisa and the Mona Lisa would not be as beautiful or as perfect, or as interesting if he hadn't studied anatomy, if he hadn't studied nature, if he hadn't studied landscapes, if he hadn't tried to get bird bird's-eye views, like all of these things come together in this painting. And I think that. In a weird way. The Rome graph is the Mona Lisa in a way that, um, in, in a way that we could never view Leonardo da Vinci's notebooks. Like I think that his notebooks are just as valuable, if not more valuable than any painting that he's left behind. But because we as humans, can't leaf through the notebooks and see his thoughts, it doesn't feel as immediately interesting or. Masterful as the painting that we can view or like go to a museum to see, you know, you can't hang is every page of his notebooks in a gallery. Like you could, but like no one will in the same way that they hang his paintings. Um, and in my hope is that, you know, because of the way that we're actually able to like interconnect text that the text itself can be viewed as a master work and a work of. Of history, you know, of, of interest of intrigue in the same way that like a typical art piece has been throughout time. But I also, I don't know, man, like, you know, I think that's the power of Rome, right. Is I have already realized. Oh, I should really write about this. Oh, I should really do this. Oh, wow. Like I've thought about this 10 times. Oh, I, I found that off there already, like way long ago in this quote, from this other book, I didn't realize it was the same guy. Like I do that all of the time. So, you know, even though I said, like, I'm not the blank guy, I wonder if I will recognize that the trends and the topics and the things that matter to me, um, In a way that I wouldn't, if I was just living life every day, because I'm seeing the things that truly matter to me that truly get me energized coming up to the surface again and again. So, you know, I think, I think time will tell.

Norman Chella: 1:29:57

Time will tell of course. And as the graph grows, I like that actually. Um, Your graph as a masterwork or your graph as the Mona Lisa, if we could get a graph overview that actually creates a piece of art, like it looks really, really pretty. That would be amazing. Uh, that, that also just reminded me, I think, in Malaysia last year. Yeah. Last year there was a Leonardo da Vinci exhibition, and people had like, they had like notebooks pages. Uh, printed, uh, on the wall. So you can actually see or try to figure out what, uh, he was trying to draw, trying to say, and it had digital screens showcasing the art because they're not going to bring the art all the way to it and that a country, but they could at least scan it and you could see the details. So you can see the imperfections in each of his art pieces. So the fact that we can get an exhibition of a person who. Has done 50 different things has incomplete pieces of art. And some parts of the art are flawed. Like, I mean, it's really masterful work, but there are some parts where maybe the proportions are a little bit off or it there's a gradual progress in his skill. Um, people will still accept it and people will still visit it and people will still come to it and people will still. Want to see it and want to see more of it because they are enamored of the name, Leonardo da Vinci. So if we tried to transpose that feeling into us, our Mona Lisa is probably the experience that you can provide to someone. If you give them the key to your graph and let them explore, like, if, if your graph becomes a museum, then that will probably be. You're a Mona Lisa. I, that would be great too, to have that, like, to be able to translate that into an experience or even a narrative, uh, was I was trying to explore this idea of, of a, a premium graph where instead of having, like, if you want to be like a self-publishing author, you, you know, you, you write a book and you publish the book on Amazon or something like that. And I was trying to entertain this idea of an unlinked book. Which will be just a normal book on Amazon, but a linked version where you have to pay to access a graph of the same book, but with extra notes and access to the next book or a trilogy or whatever. But it's basically all of this author's works in one premium graph and then you just pay to get access to it. So it's like building a theme park of your writing. Oh, that's amazing.

Drew Coffman: 1:32:41

In a, in a way that I have no interest in paying for newsletters that show up as emails that I don't want to get. I'm very interested in paying for, you know, we're on research graphs that actually let me explore it in a way like that, you know? Um, and I, I definitely think that we are still stuck in the con in the, in the constraints of the mediums that we have today, like email, uh, and, you know, I am currently just anytime that I come across a newsletter, I like anytime I come across an article that I like I'm importing it into my room, but, you know, imagine the world where it is already in its own room and you can choose to import it or work with it, however you want. And like, yeah, that sounds like the future that I want to be a part of. And it seems like it's the one that's coming, so, you know yeah. Has anybody done like a newsletter on Rome yet? I don't.

Norman Chella: 1:33:27

no, no,

Drew Coffman: 1:33:29

a, that's a good idea. If any listener wants to, you know, I will tweet at me if you create your Rome newsletter and I will be your first quote, unquote subscriber. So please save me from not having to read your thoughts via email. I would much rather read them in a, in a public room.

Norman Chella: 1:33:45

you've triggered a memory in me months ago. If you know the designer, uh, as Elza, the one that was hired onto the team, he had this idea where he wanted to code and auto newsletter. For updates on his digital garden. So it was the prototype for the idea that you're talking about, where he had a digital garden and each note under each evergreen note or whatever it was, uh, You can update it with like notes over time and there will be a newsletter that will come out that will go into your email. And it'll say like, Hey, as Lynn has updated the following notes, this note, this note, this note, click here to view. So that's like the prototype for it, but I'm really curious about a newsletter graph. That will be really interesting. I, I really want to see that happen. Like we've seen people. Building their newsletters on Rome and then publishing it through the normal newsletter format, like writing the newsletter is in Rome, but publishing it is still the usual newsletter stuff. And I'm getting newsletter fatigue a lot. Like my I'm getting headaches just from looking at the updates tab on my Gmail. And

Drew Coffman: 1:34:54

no, it's no good.

Norman Chella: 1:34:55

yeah, I, I really want to read all of the amazing work that people are, are reading, like are creating, but. I don't know, like I wish there was a better way to, to consume it. Um, but yeah, if we, if Rome can fix that, that'd be great. But basically if Rome can fix everything, that'd be great. Like, not that I'm being very, very biased about it, but email newsletters, um, audio even, yeah. Collaboration is the big one. Like collaborations probably when VI V2 of Rome will be out and V3 is like the API or API will be like V 1.5 or something like that. But we'll see. And, uh, I hope that this is not too bad for timing coming up on time. Might as well, uh, close it off of a couple of segments or segments rather that I would love to hear, uh, your answers to this. Although I think you've already answered it already. Like halfway through the conversation. The first one is how would you describe roam to someone who hasn't started using it yet?

Drew Coffman: 1:35:58

No, actually, I haven't said that necessarily the way that I constantly refer to around, just because I think that it's helpful to have like something that people can imprint onto immediately is I say it's sort of like Wikipedia for note taking like, just like when you go on Wikipedia and there's all those blue links and you can explore through it, imagine that, but for your notes and you know, is it a perfect one-to-one like example of what Rome is? No, definitely not. But I think that because we've. All used Wikipedia. And we all know that Wikipedia has all those wonderful blue links that go back and forth different pages. And you can explore all day. That is a healthy way to get people into the understanding of bi-directional links, which I think is the first thing that people should. Learn about because it's the real differentiator, you know, if I say, Oh, it has this graph, you know, and it's like a, you know, like that's all too conceptual and weird, so Wikipedia, but for your notes is always the way that I pitch it. And that that's, that's definitely my elevator pitch.

Norman Chella: 1:36:59

okay. Yeah, definitely a really good reference since everybody knows how Wikipedia works. Like. Maybe not even like the fine tunings of it, but at least navigating through it, they'll be like, Oh yeah, it goes here. It can go here. It can go here. Okay. Yeah. That's a good way to put it. And the final question is what does Rome mean to you?

Drew Coffman: 1:37:20

Well, you may. Uh, not be surprised to hear that I'll throw around the word community again. Um, but you know, for me, roam goes way beyond just like a collection of notes that I'm putting in a silo. Um, it goes even beyond that concept that I was saying of like the sourdough starter of the mind, you know, that is, is growing and is making me happy to see grow. Like if it was just for me, If it was just me watching it grow, I know that I would kill it much. Like my sourdough starter is in freezer, deep storage right now. You know, I am not growing it every day because I don't want a loaf of bread every day. And I don't necessarily want to write all my thoughts every day. Like it's, it's my, my use of Roman scattershot. Some days my daily notes. Is massive. Some days it's two lines. Some days I'm writing thousands of words in Rome and taking notes and doing highlights some days, it's nothing, some days it's, it's totally blank. And I go back the next day and try to remember what I was doing. Like, you know, I'm, I'm that kind of person that. If I'm just doing it for me. Um, some days I'll have really, really productive, um, periods and some days I'll, I'll have nothing to say. The reason that I'm excited about Rome and the reason that I'm gonna stick with it for the longterm, and the reason that I'm talking about it right now on this show and, you know, talking about it on Twitter and making videos and this and that is because. Of the community aspect of it is because of the promise of multiplayer in the future is because of the concept of talking to people beyond me. So, you know, to me roam, isn't a note-taking tool. It's not a productivity tool, it's a communication tool. It's a social network in a way that no social network is able to be, um, because it's allowing me to put. The fullness of myself on two pages that can be picked up as you wish at any time. You know, when I, when I tweet something. I know I'm about to like, send this out to the world and everyone's going to see it right now when you do a blog or a YouTube video or whatever, that's how it feels when I'm writing in Rome. I am both writing for myself in the present and others in the future. And that's. Totally different in a way that feels really profound. So, you know, it's it's community, to me, it's, it's the promise of community. It's, it's a space for socially networked thought, not just networked thought and a silo. Um, and that's why, that's why I'm going to keep using it for years to come.

Norman Chella: 1:39:56

Fantastic. A place for socially networked thought is. Going to be the biggest differentiator once multiplayer room comes out, it'll be a lot easier for people to understand that actually not that cause, cause then you can easily assign it to social networks and all that. So, yes, I love this. I love this. Like you're getting more and more ways to articulate just how great the impact of Rome can be, you know, for. What you're trying to do, or what you are prioritizing, which is community and community seriously is one of the biggest factors behind, uh, rum research being so grand as it is right now. Because if Rome research wasn't really known that, well, then maybe may not have a Monta disease to this amount of success, but it's fantastic to see that. Rome cult, uh, roam culture and what you're doing now with your videos and your tweet threads on everything from to games sounds to Rome. Research is out there for everyone to see. So drew, thank you so much. If we want to contact you or reach out to you for anything that we talked about is in this conversation, what is the best way to do that?

Drew Coffman: 1:41:10

Hit me up on Twitter. My DMS are always open. I love talking to people. Um, somebody on the roam FM thread notice that I have a, a status message in my name. So if I'm, if it says drew coffin is online, drew Kaufman is online and he will be happy to talk and chat. Uh, so yeah, find me there.

Norman Chella: 1:41:28

Fantastic. And of course, uh, Drew's Twitter will be in the public aroma fem graph right below as well as they show notes. If you want to look at other things like transcripts, et cetera. So, um, I mean, if I had a stream deck, I would totally play the PSU game zone right now for you. But drew, thank you so much. And I will see you on Twitter.

Drew Coffman: 1:41:48

All right.